Design community influencer launches a spec competition

He has clearly never designed a logo…

Posted by Lucy Woodman on 25 August 2011

For some identity projects, I can almost guarantee that the time incurred is equal to or more than the time spent on web designing, and even taking time out of the equation, Dainis is missing the point entirely.

Posted by Phil Stringfellow on 25 August 2011

just reporting in to support and say GTFO.

Posted by kyee on 25 August 2011

Your campaigns thus far have been quite the public embarrassment for the guilty parties involved, at least within our community.

His remark belittling the time and worth of identity design vs. web design will only compound it.  Many web designers never studies design and their work shows it. Much of web design become a plug and play operation with little design skill or even design choices involved. A logotype screams about the skill of the practitioner responsible, no templates, formulas or severe limitations aiding us or tying our hands.

I can only imagine the ire Dainis will feel today on his various social platforms. You should start a pool for how many hours it will take for your campaigns to result in the removal of such contests.

Posted by Patrick King on 25 August 2011

Another appalling approach to bleed a designer/illustrator of their work for next to nothing if not for free. 

Dainis obviously doesn’t respect the value of the end product, the designer, research and the hours of work involved in creating an identity/logo.

Eps files are the only accepted format?  I can’t help but wonder how many of these will end up on logo sites for sale after the “competition”.

I’m assuming Dainis posted the logos on the page as examples.  Either way, that is infringement itself and seriously hope some if not all of these companies demand to have them removed.

Designers and Illustrators.  If you value yourself and your work you will steer clear of this and any other spec project that clearly doesn’t respect the profession and your creations.  Take pride in what you do and the work you put into it.

Posted by Greg Newman on 25 August 2011

Pretty embarrassing considering they make thousands of dollars a month. I’m pretty sure he can afford one of the great designers on Forrst or Dribbble.

Posted by Inspirationfeed on 25 August 2011

The fact that they only accept EPS format as a file submission is appalling indeed, Greg Newman. That’s the equivalent of a client wanting the source files prior to paying you for your work and prior to final approval. Who in the design world does that? I’ll tell you: Nobody.

I like that Dainis is open to discussing it on a public platform though. Some people would brush it off and just send a canned response of some sort. I can see the appeal of doing a logo competition of this sort (gets people involved) but the only ones benefitting from it are the ones receiving the logo files.

Why would I give you something for free when you’re potentially going to make profit on it? What do I get out of it? Exposure? Please. The whole “you’ll gain exposure” angle wasn’t even appealing when I was completely green behind the ears to the design and web dev world.

Posted by Daryn St. Pierre on 25 August 2011

OMG!!!! Seriously?? Yes you were right, I was shouting at the screen! Makes me so mad to hear that coming from him!

Posted by Poonum Chauhan on 25 August 2011

I’m a front and back end programmer, and I even know how much time and effort it takes to make a logo.

Open your eyes 1stwebdesigner. Spec = Bad

Posted by Nicole Foster on 25 August 2011

I actually think this guy is playing the community of supporters that Mark has put together here. He wants open discussion (read free publicity) then he’s going to change course and become a staunch supporter of the movement. Don’t let it work! this is a classic publicity stunt. This guy knows better! you’re gut tells you he does, doesn’t it?

As far as his statements go: ignorant and offensive to those of us who are constantly toiling to make a living pushing pixels.

EDITOR NOTE: I agree Max. I have to consider for every campaign the benefit of free publicity for the offending party. The only true goal here is to make enough noise to educate designers/clients. The bigger picture is more important here.  Besides if this is the case then reputation damage is deserved and may well be permanent.

Posted by Max Quattromani on 25 August 2011

Talk about giving Brand Designers a firm kick in the privates. Then to add insult to injury, while you’re lying there writhing in pain, they’re gonna steal your trousers in eps format !? Wow.

Posted by Neo Mudaly on 25 August 2011

OUCH. I think it hurts even more when a fellow ‘designer’ devalues the profession. It’s ignorance like this that perpetuates the public’s thoughts on design…..especially logo design.

His Twitter feed states: “Hey guys, dont be so upset I just wanted to try for once such service. I am pretty sure I will end up hiring pro logo designer anyway.”

(in my most sarcastic voice) That’s cool. In return for a logo design, I’ll just request that he go ahead and create a site style for me for free since I think it requires less skill, knowledge of design, and time than what I do and then just go hire a pro anyway armed with his native file. That makes it all better, right?

WRONG.

Posted by Sheana on 25 August 2011

I wouldn’t even suggest that 1stWebDesigner is part of the professional web design community. Most of their posts are just the usual collection of sites, tools or freebies. When they do actually produce content like tutorials the quality of the work just isn’t that good. The logo in this example http://www.1stwebdesigner.com/tutorials/gaming-layout-photoshop/ is appalling. As has been pointed out by one of the commenters.

Posted by Josh Shindler on 25 August 2011

Wow, all I can think of are snarky mean-spirited responses to a ‘designer’ devaluing the identity design process, so I guess I’ll just say, ‘For shame.’

Posted by Joseph Moore on 25 August 2011

Ouch. I’m offended.

Posted by Tabitha Kristen on 25 August 2011

I can’t believe he would say that and not pull the competition.  Here is the timeline of what we put into just one logo concept in fast forward.  >> http://vimeo.com/8981906

Posted by Brian White on 25 August 2011

Although I agree with your post I can’t help but think about the fact that

1) people don’t have to participate in the contest and give their ideas for free

2) there is no law against saving money by trying to get stuff for free (which they are not, there is a prize package)

And on another note, it is my understanding that when hiring someone to design your logo it

1) is not cheap

2) you are very limited to choices and number of redesigns (which makes sense from the point of the designer but what about the customer who just does not like the design the designer is presenting?)

so doing this contest is probably a very smart business decision. Who are we to boycott a business for being smart? Sounds kinda like jealousy to me…

Hope I didn’t offend anybody here (for that is not my intention) but this is my opinion…

Posted by Angie on 25 August 2011

Unfollowed on twitter, Unliked on Facebook. Un-subscribed the RSS feed. Wont visit the blog where I wrote 45+ articles as a guest author.

Posted by Taimur Asghar on 25 August 2011

In addition to the time and effort it takes to create a logo, the cost involve has to do with the value of establishing an element of identity that can last forever. Even if it takes only 15 minutes to complete (which it won’t), a quality logo is priced to represent your company/brand for eternity…

Posted by April on 25 August 2011

Angie, I in no way want to be combative however I think you may not have a good grasp on how a professional designer goes about creating the logos that get presented to a client.

First, there are many hours spent with the client gathering information and asking questions so the designer can fully comprehend the goals, tastes, demographics, style, etc of the customer. After the information is gathered, the designer spends time researching their client’s competitors, strengths, weaknesses, goals. They then provide a design brief for open discussion with the client to nail down the direction of the design. After that, the designer sketches, mind-maps and digitally conceptualizes the designs. At the designer’s discretion, and using the outlined, agreed-upon design brief as a guide, he/she will present to the client the the most relevant and effective designs. Sometimes it’s 2 designs, sometimes it’s 5….it will depend on the designer. Keep in mind though that the designs presented to the client are fully thought out and researched designs that were conceptualized with the clients needs/wants already in mind. We’re talking hours and hours of time spent before a proof is shown. This typically results in at least one of the presented designs being a ‘winning’ design right from the starting gate. It also generally reduces the time spent editing and revising….of course every design and every client are different….but overall, one of the concepts presented hit the mark and the next step of the process can be started.

When I do a logo, there is no limitation on the revisions or amount of proofs it takes to finalize the brandmark. Perhaps some designers do this but I feel that placing a limit on proofs/revisions hinders the client’s ability to ask for what they want and limits the designer’s ability to provide the client with an effective logo.

So while yes, there may be limited choices once the client sees the first proof, the choices presented are born out of the client-designer relationship, discussions, research, thought, and are meant to fit into a particular goal.

In conclusion, it is not a wise business move to have the face of your company designed without the designer having the benefit of the full story behind your company, the goals of your company, and a solid client/designer relationship where the designer gets a feel for your tastes, personality, etc. Logo designs are not a commodity and should not be treated as such and I would venture to say that any logo designer worth their weight in salt would not be ‘jealous’ of the dozens of designers who spent time and resources creating a logo to submit who did not win the $599.00.

Posted by Sheana on 25 August 2011

Oh my,  I really don’t enjoy how Mark Collins, changes my words about identity design, here is my full reply to his email so there is no confusion:

“Hello Mark,
thank you for contacting me and I was surprised about bad feedback my actions got. That’s exactly why I am planning to write article explaining my stand, interviewing those people who actually design for companies like 99designs.com and many more.

I don’t support this stand on web designs, but on logo designs I struggled with SEVERAL logo designers I tried to hire and work wash’t good for me. I thought about creating contest like SmashingMagazine did, long time ago, giving readers a chance to design logo for their beloved blog and get featured because of that.

I guess problem is that I am average designer myself and it’s hard to find logo designer, who is actually available and good enough to design such logo. I can do it myself, I did it, but I think others can do better job..and there are certain audience for logo contests where young designers can easily join and try their skills ( when nobody else will be ready to pay for their works), and get huge experience by doing work to many clients in the meantime.

There is a reason why such websites are popular. I really don’t promote web designer sites..because there is much bigger time involved…as in your site mentioned (3 companies invest quality time, where just one get money). With logo design, there is no chance one designer will get so many different ideas even with his huge experience. And yes, with this contest I plan to get a lot of ideas and I don’t put too much hopes, that it will be actual finished logo design, because yes - in such designs people won’t invest so much time and thinking into logotype..it’s more/less manufacture work for them.

That is my thinking and I really would love to publicly discuss it with people, since it appears to raise big discussions.”

Currently I am creating an article/interviews with designers who join such networks and do web design/identity works. Let them speak too, not only specs.

That being said, this is the first time I decided to give a try to such contest website, because I wanted it to generate a lot of various quick logo ideas. I know how much time and research is needed to create professional branding, but with 1WD logo I was on different road. I needed ideas (quickly created - quantity this time), which after contest could be further developed.

I just want to show people here two sides that exist and will exist the same way exist - Themeforest theme shop and freelance designers.

EDITOR NOTE:

To be really clear.

You said:

“I really don’t promote web designer sites..because there is much bigger time involved”

and

“people won’t invest so much time and thinking into logotype..it’s more/less manufacture work for them”

I said:

“Dainis explained that he is against spec work for web design but suggested that it’s ok for logo design because there isn’t as much time involved.”

Bottom line is that you think spec work for identity design is fine because you struggle with it.

Posted by Dainis Graveris on 25 August 2011

The contest has ended per their site and is now in the ‘judging’ phase.

Posted by Sheana on 25 August 2011

Wow I just now found this site, so 1 good thing came out of this LOL

In My Opinion, I was surprised that everyone is surprised (I think I saw a few people already say that) - but I believe that the best way to fight Spec work, is to just teach designers starting out (or anyone who doesn’t know what SPEC work is) that it is never ok to work for free.

If we could just get everyone to say NO to spec work, it will eventually die out (but I don’t see that happening)

If anyone ever asks me to do anything for free, or a contest, I always say NO

and if anyone ever asks me if they should do anything for free, I tell them to tell whoever wants it “FFUUUUUUUU”

If anything I hope the design community (as a whole) gets smarter because of this example

Posted by Andy Sowards on 25 August 2011

Again Mark, I am amused how you want to misunderstand my words and intentions with this logo design.

Now I just feel that people here are just blindly following words out-of-the-context with hate against everybody,who 100% do not agree to this concept. I will continue this conversation on my own site, here - I don’t see at all healthy or valuable discussion here. Listen to yourself at first.

Thank you for attention.

Founder of 1stWebDesigner

Posted by Dainis Graveris on 25 August 2011

Really shocking and disappointing views from Dainis.

“With logo design, there is no chance one designer will get so many different ideas even with his huge experience.”

Really? From the looks of the contest, the majority of the entries are the same ‘idea’ (or rather, lack of) but with different colours.

I have pages and pages of unused ideas for several identities I’ve created. For live briefs at university, I regularly use over 100 post-it notes, each featuring a different idea, before I settle on a selection of concepts to discuss with clients. These are then developed following feedback from the client, so it’s entirely possible one brief could feature 200+ ideas before we even settle on a final design concept.

Posted by Paul Murray on 25 August 2011

I want to create a documented response, not just one-sided, I invite designers, who directly have suffered from such contest website to contact me http://www.1stwebdesigner.com/contact-us/ and tell their story, so I can publish their opinion along with opposite side.

Those who really have suffered from work loss, time loss, money loss because of these websites.

Posted by Dainis Graveris on 25 August 2011

In Italy a comedian said: “They’re all gay with the others’ ass.”

It’s a nice quote for Dainis Graveris because when it comes to another profession (even if it’s strictly tied, “it’s all about design), spec becomes magically good!

It’s unfair, and I hope that he will stop this masquerade, if he’s really caring about his no-spec ideals.

Posted by Antonio Lo Conte on 26 August 2011

“...he is against spec work for web design but suggested that it’s ok for logo design because there isn’t as much time involved”

this statement is 100% correct… if we’re referring to logogarden or something. look how that turned out.

Posted by Ken on 26 August 2011

Wow, he really doesn’t understand what he’s done wrong does he!?

So wrong.

Posted by Owen jones on 26 August 2011

By entering into discussion on this site Dainis has further reinforced that he has no respect for design. When visiting his website it is clear to me he has no idea when it comes to design. I find the standards in the web design industry are far lower than those engaged in identity design. A lot of websites look like they have been knocked up in a few hours, his in a few minutes. Maybe it is web design that should be exposed to spec creative as it’s an industry fast becoming a commodity anyway.

Posted by Chris W on 26 August 2011

Glad someone else noticed this. I wrote to Dainis this morning.  See below:

Hi Dainis,

I totally disagree with your stance on ID design.  I spent 4 years in a design school learning web design, coding, and graphic design.  I have a paying job as a graphic designer, and regularly freelance for 2 of the largest corporations in the US.  You may or may not believe me, but you are flat wrong to crowdsource your ID.  Particularly being a pillar of the design community.

1:  In my 7 years of experience I have spent more time on ID design than web design.  A strong and original mark deserves much more time, and the benefit to having it is much more valuable than that of a good navigation.

2: The top story on your site right now is “How to be More Productive and Start Earning More as a Freelance Designer”.  How do you plan on helping people earn more as freelancers when you are asking people that can’t make it as freelancers give you logos for FREE (unless they win.  Pathetic.)

I’ve been following your site in my Google reader since I found it over a year ago.  Sad to say, but I’ll be removing your site from my subscriptions.  Hope you get a logo that is original, attractive, and not ripped of from someone else.  Of course you won’t know if it’s original until you get slapped with the C&D.

Posted by Kyle Anon on 26 August 2011

Logo design is only the IDENTITY of your entire company, this piece of work would be viewed by thousands of people, on numerous accounts, campaigns and promotion.

I’m now officially offended. Thanks for coming out Dainis, here’s your DOUCHE BAG button.

Posted by Sandi Carmichael on 26 August 2011